It is in the moment when Mats Hummels starts waving his arms and his eyes widen that you really begin to understand his relationship with Jurgen Klopp.
We are tucked away in a small room at Bayern Munich’s training ground and the course of this conversation will go in many directions — from his love of watching American box sets to the World Cup and, more seriously, Common Goal and UNICEF — but first let us begin with an insight into his mentor.
Hummels, the totem at the heart of Bayern and Germany’s defence, has a reputation for straight-talking.