The East End twang in Vince Hilaire's voice rings out through tinny phone speakers in an echoey basement in a central London office.
It's unrestrained and energetic - dipping into politics here, diving into a story there and, throughout it all, projecting experiences of troubling, complex matters in a lively and passionate way.
In fact, given the wearing nature of the constant racial abuse he and others endured throughout their career, it's a wonder that he can still discuss them in lively, passionate ways at all.